Palm Oil Isn’t the Problem: Land, Perception, and Supply Chain Reality with Caroline Westerik-Sikking​ and Jules Blom

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
This episode was recorded ahead of AK’s latest sustainability report. Since then, AK has made further progress, including reaching 93% verified deforestation-free palm globally. You’ll find a link to the full report in the show notes.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
There are no good and bad crops. There are good and bad practices.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Palm oil has become one of the most controversial ingredients in the world. But what if the real story is more complex and more hopeful than we think? In this episode of Climate Forward I speak with Caroline Westerik-Sikking and Jules Blom from AAK, one of the largest suppliers of plant-based oils and fats globally. We talk about palm oil, deforestation, shea sourcing in West Africa and what it really takes to build a sustainable supply chain at scale. I’m Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi and this is Climate Forward.

Jules Blom
I mean you get four times more palm oil out of a hectare of plantation than any other crop.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
We made a commitment to have a 100% deforestation free palm supply chain by 2025. We have achieved 91% right now.

Jules Blom
AAK sees a world with sustainable palm as part of the solutions to replace mineral oils.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
There are about 900,000 women involved in the collection of shea fruits.

Jules Blom
If you actually look from a CO2 perspective, also shea has a much lower footprint than cocoa butter has. We take the kernels actually from Africa, we then press them in Denmark and we use the shea meal in our bio boiler to create electricity and biogas.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Welcome Caroline Westerik-Sikking and Jules Blom from AAK. To start with, maybe you could introduce yourselves a little bit. Caroline, would you like to start to say a few words about yourself and your role?

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Yeah, thank you. I’m really interested to have this conversation with you. My role is director of sustainability, which means that I’m really responsible for everything we do in a company on sustainability, starting from the raw materials we are sourcing to how we are processing our ingredients to the solutions that we bring to our customers.

Jules Blom
Jules, how about you? Yeah, so I’m Jules Blom, I’m the commercial director for AAK in Europe. I’m looking out for the commercial teams in Europe, focusing on the food and special nutrition segments in our business.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
As the world’s population is growing and with its impact on the very limited resources in our planet, do you see a particular role for AAK in promoting sustainable ingredients in nutrition and other applications? I don’t know who of you would like to answer this.

Jules Blom
You go first.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Yeah, I can go first, of course. Being able to feed the global growing population is one of the areas that we are looking at. We need to feed 10 billion people by 2050. That will pull a lot on the demand of raw materials. Since we as a company are very dependent on the raw materials that we are sourcing, it’s really important that we are able to source the right ingredients for the right applications. The impact of climate change is obviously also having its effect, both on the yields, the quality of the raw materials. For us, sustainability and focusing on the sustainability of the raw materials is really a business imperative.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
So I understand that from your business you want to do that, but do you also see a pull from the market, from your customer’s shoes? Maybe you can say something about that.

Jules Blom
One of the bigger challenges we see what Caroline alluded to is the supply chain challenges. Raw materials become more expensive, maybe less available. And therefore our customers are really trying to see, okay, what’s happening globally? How will this develop in the next couple of years? And how can we de-risk these supply chains? And that’s where AAK can support them with.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
I think that’s a quite good bridge to something else I want to talk about. I understand that sustainability is something that is intrinsically relevant for you, because if the climate dramatically changes, your supply chain most likely also dramatically changes. So looking at maybe sustainability and also sourcing, are there any specific things that you as AK do to make sure that you have a stable supply of raw materials? Or how do you secure your supply in the long term?

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Yeah, well, I would say the long term secure is of course by having multiple sourcing regions to start with. So it’s really spreading the risk. It’s about managing the risk in the supply chain and making sure that we have the right partnerships globally across the different countries of origin, across the different raw materials. That is also what we are constantly looking at. But those raw materials are obviously impacted either by the weather or can be political issues that are causing disturbances in the supply chain. It can be import tariffs that is quite actual today that is impacting our supply chain. So we have to look at a whole range of impact factors and make sure that we have the right partnerships in place to source from. As a company, we are not directly sourcing from farmers. So we are sourcing from tier one suppliers in most cases, except for certain regions. So for example, in West Africa, we are directly sourcing from villages, from women that collect the shea kernels.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Yeah, that’s something I definitely want to touch upon a little later. We’re talking about products and raw materials. I think this is a bit abstract. So what are those products? Maybe you can tell us a little bit what is it that you’re selling and sourcing.

Jules Blom
So we are selling vegetable oils and fats solutions. So our end products are usually a mix and a combination of different oils. We also have customers that buy single oils, but where AAK is super strong is to actually find the perfect solution from a combination of oils for the end application. And we are many end applications. We are in chocolate, we are in bakery products, we are in dairy products, we are in savory products, we are in personal care products, we are in technical products. So there’s a lot of end applications that we play in. And AAK is uniquely positioned to understand raw materials, to understand oils and fats from a chemistry perspective and be able to provide solutions in all these applications. And what we do in these applications is sometimes we replace a single oil for better performance or better taste or better health. But sometimes we also replace minimal oils or dairy fats solutions with plant based oils and fat solutions.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Before we dive a bit deeper into the products, because I think this is also super interesting, I want to understand a bit more about still your sourcing. You mentioned your sourcing directly in West Africa. I know that there is a quite interesting story I want to touch upon in a second. But before that, we have to talk about something that I mentioned in the introduction, and that’s, I think, a large portion of the raw materials that you buy. And that’s palm oil. Over the past years or maybe decade, there has been a lot of controversy around palm oil and it’s been criticized for being unethically planted or grown, that it’s endangering local species. You know, I remember pictures of the Orangutans that are, you know, driven out of the plantations and the lakes. And I know that often topics can become quite emotional. So can you tell us a bit more about what is the real story about palm oil at the moment? And if AAK wants to be such a responsible company, how do you make sure that the palm oil use source is ethically OK and is sustainably grown? And I don’t know, maybe Carolina, this is in the sustainability area.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Yeah, I can take this question, obviously. I think it’s important to stress that in principle, there are no good and bad crops. There are good and bad practices. And the demand for raw materials we talked about in the beginning is increasing, right? Global population is increasing, but also the demand for specific raw materials is increasing. And this increased demand for palm specifically has led to expansion. And this expansion was not done in a proper way, so to say. So what happened is that the expansion of plantations and mainly in Indonesia, Malaysia has caused significant deforestation and deforestation of, let’s say, the forest that we would like to protect. Right. So it’s the tropical forests that are able to store carbon from the air. That’s why it’s such an important and crucial topic in sustainability. So the expansion has led to deforestation. And in some cases, there are other practices that are also impacting, obviously, the negative impact, negative image of a raw material. What AAK has been doing, and that’s actually what I what I’m really proud of, is that AAK has been one of the founding members of the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil and the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil is a multi stakeholder organization where actually many different companies of the whole supply chain are represented. So we see a combination of NGOs, banks, financial institutions, plantation companies, consumer goods companies, refiners, traders, processes like AAK. And they all work together. And this multi stakeholder organization has been working on, well, how do we define sustainable palm oil? What do we define as sustainable? And that in the end led to a standard and that standard is now called a certification. So plantations can get a certification of their plantations, RSPO certification, and that then proves that they are compliant to the principles and criteria of the Roundtable. Maybe one other thing to address, because I’ve been talking a lot now on the Roundtable of Sustainable Palm Oil as an initiative, but AAK has also been working with our own deforestation free commitment, as we call it. So we’ve been working hard. We made a commitment to have a 100 percent deforestation free palm supply chain by 2025. We have achieved 91 percent right now. And these percentages are a way of communicating our progress. But the way we calculate that is by working with satellite monitoring. So we map our supply chain. We have an understanding of what is the sourcing supply base behind all the way back to the farmer level. And with satellites, we are able to monitor if there is any deforestation taking place and what we can do to address that. So if something is happening, if something is brought to our attention, we reach out to the suppliers and work together with them to see if we can address it, yes or no.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
I like the story that you’re so a front runner in this area. Critically asked, does that impact your prices? Do you see that you are competing with unsustainable practices in the market? Is this a problem? Or do you also and maybe this is a question a bit for Jules. Do you also see that your customers value this commitment and that they are willing to to give preference to AAK because of that?

Jules Blom
Yeah, customers react differently, right? So some customers are really also front runners on sustainability and they fully see, let’s say, both the risk of not doing it, but also the benefits of actually going into this direction with with their palm supply chains. And they’re very willing to collaborate and also very willing to pick up the bills where needed. They also see that that palm in itself and Caroline mentioned it, it is a very efficient group, right? I mean, you get four times more palm oil out of a hectare of of plantation than any other crop. So in that sense, it’s more how can you make sustainable palm work instead of going away from palm? Having said that, there’s also customers that decide to go for palm free solutions. And their AAK is also very well positioned to actually bring alternatives because we are a multi oil ingredient house. We are not connected just to palm. So we can also offer other solutions based on rapeseed and so on, which sometimes is challenging from a performance perspective because palm has some characteristics or let’s say benefits there. But because we have our technology toolbox, different ways of processing and really understanding oils of fat chemistry, we can still provide those solutions for customers.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
This is this is something I want to come back to because you said it’s it’s this very, very efficient high yield crop. My follow up question would have been originally, why do we use palm now? Because I don’t remember without going too much into my age, but maybe 30 years ago, there was not a lot of talk about palm oil. There’s I mean, there’s one big producer that uses it that comes to mind. That’s Nutella. And I don’t know whether 30 years ago they used palm oil or something else. But it seems to be a I don’t want to say newer, but it seems to be in well, maybe a newer oil in this in this broad application. Is that true? Is it just my impression?

Jules Blom
I think palm has been around for long. Right. I think the attention palm gets is quite new. And that’s maybe then the consumer perception that palm is suddenly popping up everywhere. But I think palm is used in many, many different applications. So, yeah, I think that is more a perception and a reality from that from that perspective.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
OK, good. So it’s yeah.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Yeah, maybe I can add something because because palm has specific characteristics. So the way we look at oils and fats in a case that we always look at the texture it brings, but also the fatty acid profile. And then, of course, the sustainability of the raw material. It’s it’s that whole portfolio from a quality point of view, from a nutritional point of view and from a sustainability point of view that we are looking at the different raw materials and palm tick many boxes and has some has some characteristics that are very difficult to to get from other oils without further processing. So because it brings a certain structure and texture to the applications because of the nature of the ingredients. And on top of that, what what you was already mentioning, it’s a very efficient crop. So if we want to replace one ton of oil with another ingredient, we need more land. And I think that’s that’s actually the best part of the story. So the issue with palm is not necessarily the the the unsustainability. We need to make sure that we produce it in a sustainable way and that the practices are sustainable. But let’s do it at the amount of land that we currently have and make sure we focus on even further improving the yield, for example, and the yields means the amount of oil per hectare. There are still opportunities, even though palm is already very high yield compared to any other vegetable oil crop in the world.

Jules Blom
Yeah. And again, as I said, AAK sees a world with palm, right, with sustainable palm as part of the solutions to actually use more oil plant based oils and fats to replace minimal oils and animal based fats. Right. If you look from a sustainability perspective, I think it’s difficult to argue that that is a bad choice. At the same time, we need to make sure that the practices on how to grow palm, etc., are the right ones.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Yeah, I like this in the beginning, because I think this applies to many, many things we judge that it’s about good or bad practices and not it’s bad or good, per se. Now, we talked a lot about palm, but this is not the only oil you have in your portfolio. And you also mentioned shea butter and we said we’re going to come back to this story. I know this is something that is really interesting. So I want to understand, first of all, where or how does the shea butter you source end up in everyday products or global brands? So where does it go to? What what do I do with shea butter? And then how do you source it? Why is this a special story? And and how does this have also very, very strong impact on the local community? And maybe, you can talk a little bit about the sourcing part and you could talk about the application part where it’s the product is then used.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Yeah, sure. And shea, or shea, as it is also called, is being sourced. And it’s grown is growing in the shea belt in West Africa. So there are a few countries in the world where a specific tree is growing. And unlike palm that we’ve just been talking about, shea is a wild crop. So it’s growing in, you know, you know, these pictures. Imagine you see an African landscape with these big trees. That is usually shade trees. And those shade trees grow on on the pieces of land and they they provide kernels. They have fruits that fall from the trees. And women in West Africa are collecting those fruits. There are about 900000 women involved in the collection of shea fruits. AK is sourcing those is not sourcing the shea fruits. The fruits basically they they. Yeah, they end on the land and then the fruit disappears and the kernels is what is left over. And the kernel is the is the element that the women are collecting. And they are they are boiling the kernels also to prevent further germination from happening so that that the germination process stops. And we are buying those kernels in in bags of 70 kilograms from those women. We have a team of 65 extension offices, as we call them. They visit all the different villages across West Africa, in Ghana, in Ivory Coast, in Togo, in Benin. And that is where we where we visit the villages ourselves. Our direct sourcing program is what we call Kolo Nafaso. And it means the house of Shea benefits. That is what the program is called. And we what we do in this program is that we pre-finance the women that are collecting the kernels for us. And this pre-financing is like a microcredit. So those women are becoming entrepreneurs. They can choose to sell to AAK. Yes or no. They can sign up for this for this program. They get a bank account. And with that, they can use the money the way they want to use it. They either spend it on schooling for the children or they invest it in certain equipment or in another business at a time that the season, for example, is low because it’s a seasonal crop. So they can they can use that money. And that’s actually how it’s working. And it’s yeah, it’s a very positive impact that we can make. We have about 250,000 women that are signed up for this program. So we are we’ve been in the country countries for many years as AAK. And for us, the benefit is that it improves the quality of the kernels. It improves the livelihoods of those women in in very remote villages. So why does it improve the quality of the kernels? Because we have more direct control over the supply chain.

Jules Blom
Yeah, we also help the women because indeed the kernels are boiled and then dried. And the way that is done is quite important, let’s say, for the oil content in the kernel. So we actually educate the women on how they can do the drying process more efficiently.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Exactly. So we help them to build cookstoves and cookstoves. They they they do that in a very traditional way, actually. But by educating them on how to do that in a better way, we prevent burnings from happening. They have to use less wood from the forest. So it’s and the quality of the of the kernels is even better. So from that perspective, it is a really positive story.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
I’m curbing my enthusiasm here. This is really cool. I mean, I think this is something where, you know, big business can have a positive impact, does something good and profits from doing this right. I mean, doing well by doing good is something that I so like. So this is it’s a really well fit. And now so you get a more consistent or better controlled oil from that. And then where does it end up?

Jules Blom
Yeah, yeah.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
And yeah, what do you do with it?

Jules Blom
Yeah, so the two main applications for Shea are actually in chocolates and in personal care products. Let’s say the the oil from from Shea is quite close to cocoa butter, and it also mixes very well with cocoa butter. So it’s an excellent kind of add on into your chocolate recipes where you can reduce the amount of cocoa butter in your recipes. So you add Shea oil in there also for personal care. It is why

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
would you do that as a producer?

Jules Blom
Yeah, so the benefits are, first of all, from a performance perspective. So when you have chocolate and it’s not produced in the right way, you get bloom. So this is the white layer that you see sometimes on your chocolate. That can that can be because of processing. But also if you use pure cocoa butter, let’s say the shelf life of chocolate is less long than if you use Shea butter in there. So it has benefits, let’s say in the in the prevention of bloom. But also it is a cost efficient oil. Right. So we’ve seen cocoa butter prices over the last years have really spiked. So Shea is a very cost efficient alternative also to reduce your amount of cocoa butter in your in your recipes. Thirdly, if you actually look from a CO2 perspective, also Shea has a much lower footprint than than cocoa butter has. And if you look to our supply chain, even more so because we take the oil or we take the kernels actually from from Africa, we then press them in Denmark and we use the Shea meal in our bio boiler to. To create electricity and biogas.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
So the Shea meal is the is the byproducts that’s left over.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
So you the shell.

Jules Blom
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So very efficient. Let’s say process also from a CO2 perspective.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Lovely bridge to my next question, by the way, because I want to talk a little bit about the second thing that struck my mind when I looked at your website. First thing is applications and then immediately says co development. So I want to make chocolate. I have a recipe where then call AAK. Hey, can you give me some cocoa butter and cocoa oil and you say, yes, we can. But you probably also want to mix in some she but is that how it works or how

Jules Blom
it works is that we are very close to our customer. Right. So we have customers. We have a very solid, long, long standing relationship with our with our customers. And that means we are in regular contact with them. Right. And we see market trends are changing. Different products are coming to market. Different technologies, processing technologies are being introduced. And all of that comes with gains, but also with pains. Right. So in the conversation that we have with customers, they usually open up. And this is where we are at our best. If they open up, let’s say, on the challenges and the opportunities that they see. And we can help them with oil and fat solutions to either reduce their pains or increase their gains, if you will. Right. And sometimes that can mean, indeed, OK, we’re going to bring a shea oil solution to you or a blend of different oils. But sometimes it’s also, you know, adjusting their processing parameters to make sure our oil actually works best in their in their facilities. So that’s what we call the co development approach. If customers really open up to us and we have an active conversation around it, that is where AAK performs best.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
So I want to know a little bit more about this, because the first thing that struck me was that you keep on talking about solutions and not oils. Right. So AAK doesn’t see itself as a raw material trader, I assume, because there’s probably more that you do. So where exactly do you then create additional value for your customers? You mentioned this co development approach. I understand. But is there also knowledge that you create out of yourself on, for example, blending of oils? Of what do you do your own R&D on this area, for example?

Jules Blom
Yeah, absolutely. So we have a lot of, let’s say, oils and fats experts that know exactly how oils and fats work in the different applications. So crystallization experts and all of that, that can really help our customers in their end application. So customers come to us, you know, my chocolate is too soft or too hard or it doesn’t melt. Can you help us to look into what is the cause of this? And then we can start our co development work with them. So that is how it works in general. So the end product we supply is usually a blend of oils and fats. But the solution that we provide to them is actually, you know, taste, texture, it could be better health. It could also be more cost optimized solutions. We have customers, you know, that trend that go from whole fat milk based products into skim milk product and then add our oils and fats to still make a whole fat solution for the customers. So there’s all kinds of different needs that we can address with our co development approach.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
And I would assume that this trend a little bit way to or a little bit more in the direction of vegetable based diets is also something that plays a bit into the hands of AAK because this is your expertise. So some margarine, for example, is something that is a deep expectation

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
for the whole transformation to plant based meat or plant based dairy solutions is definitely something that we that we have core in our strategy, right? So where we can where we can differentiate and that is also where we can apply our knowledge.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
And what is it then that the customers value? Is it the is it the guarantee of a sustainable and trustworthy or transparent supply chain? Or why do people come to it? Or is it because they need support or they want to work with you on improving or changing their products?

Jules Blom
Yeah, it can be both. Right. So usually they come to us for a deep understanding of oils and fats. I mean, 150 years in this business. So we know what we’re talking about. Right. They also come to us to understand how are we securing supply chains? Because if they go in with a solution, of course, they want to make sure it’s a sustainable solution from a availability perspective. Right. So there we can guide them in the right direction and to the right oils or provide alternatives in case they need it. But we see also more and more that they start asking questions about, OK, but how can we position ourselves from a sustainability perspective? How can we actually leverage, you know, the great story around Shea in our communications towards our consumers and stakeholders? And that’s the journey AAK has embarked on now a couple of years back to see how can we also position sustainability as one of the value drivers for our business?

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Yeah, because next that to the fact that we have a deforestation free commitment, many of our customers also want to have assurance that their supply chain is free from deforestation. So we work with customers also on mapping their supply chains, proving that indeed there’s no deforestation happening, looking together at at issues. So that’s that’s the way it’s working. Also, from a sustainability point of view, I would say we do quite some sustainability co-development, if you will, where we where we really try to partner and also look at, well, what are the complex topics that we need to address going forward?

Jules Blom
And maybe some concrete examples of that linked also to our Kolo Nafaso program, because I think that’s probably the program we have in AAK, where you can make the most direct impact as a customer if you sign up to that program. And we have companies like Mars, Ferrero, Beiersdorf that have signed up to this and are also actively communicating externally, you know, the impact they make by signing up to this program. And because you have a direct impact on the lives of 250 women, but even more people, if you connected to their families, that is a huge advantage for them.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
250,000.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Yeah.

Jules Blom
Oh, OK.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
This is an incredible number, by the way. I mean, this is. Yeah. So you already mentioned a few big names there. I’m very curious. Can you tell us a little bit or tell me a little bit about what are the products that you that your products end up or your solutions end up in? We already heard chocolate, but I’d like to know a little bit more. What are the things that people make with the solutions, vegetable oil solutions from AAK?

Jules Blom
Yeah, so it’s used in chocolate is a wide range of product, right? So you have chocolate bars, you have fillings, you have the spreads and all of that. So so that’s our kind of CCF business where vegetable oils end up.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
What’s CCF?

Jules Blom
Sorry, chocolate and confectionery. That’s how we call our our industry there. A second big pillar in our business is our bakery business. So for cakes, bread, cookies, biscuits. That’s also where vegetable oils play a big role. A third segment that we’re playing in is dairy and hybrid dairy and plant based dairy. So Oatly, as an example, is is a customer of ours in that in that space. Then special nutrition, special nutrition. So infant formula. Also there are vegetable oils play a big role. Also going more and more into the health side of of oil. So not only for functionality, texture and so on, but really also with clear health benefits like brain health and these type of applications. And then there’s, you know, personal care products, technical products. We are in feed. So we’re really in a right range of industries in feed. Yes, animal feeds. We’re also there. Yeah, we also have rapeseed protein because we do our rapeseed crushing in in Karlshamn. So AAK is really in multiple segments. And that, of course, serves our business very well, because if if one industry has a challenge, then there’s other industries that we are serving, right?

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
I think we had we have a good overview, a little bit of what AAK is doing and the products. Now, as one of the last things I would like to talk about is a bit looking into the future. Where do you see the plant oil industry or the plant oil based solutions industry going in the future? And especially when we talk about nutrition and the challenge of feeding the world. And but also from a sustainability standpoint or more traditional sustainability standpoint, decarbonisation of of of the way we work, the way we eat. Yeah. Are there any specific trends or future applications that you see and you want to mention? Jules, maybe you can talk a little bit. And do you get these requests also from your customer side?

Jules Blom
So I mentioned, let’s say the segments where AAK is active in and we project, let’s say that plant based oil and fats continue to play a very strong role in those segments. There’s two particular segments where we believe AAK could make additional steps in, right? And one of them is replacing mineral oil based products, for example, lubricants or car tires or these type of applications where you still see a majority of mineral oil based applications. But we see quite a good opportunity, let’s say, for plant based alternatives. This is what we call our new naturals program. And that is in an area we are investing in. A second area we are looking into is the whole health platform. You also see plant based oils and fats having specific benefits from a health perspective. And we’re also exploring that more and more. What we see within, let’s say, the traditional segments is that you talk about palm and do we want to have palm in our applications and some customers choosing not to. Then you can go to soft oils, but then you need to use some processing steps that maybe customers also don’t always want. So how can you actually provide the right vegetable oil solution without the negative consequences of a processing step or without maybe the perception on palm? And that’s also something that we are exploring. That sounds a bit vague because we can’t comment too much around that. Yeah, that’s where we are.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
From a sustainability standpoint, something to add, but do you think there’s a major role that this industry has to play or can play? And if so, which is it?

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Definitely. I see AAK is really playing a role in also helping our customers to achieve their sustainability commitments, targets with that also the need for sustainability to become, let’s say, from storytelling more to facts. So we’ve been on the journey for the last, let’s say, 15 to 20 years since the word sustainability maybe was sort of developing in business. And now we come to a phase where everything has to be proven. We need to avoid that we are over promising and without having the proper evidence in place. So making sure that we have the data on greenhouse gas emissions, that we have the data on the actual sustainability impact of a solution. And for climate and I would say environmental data that is even easier than, for example, when you look at the social component, because how do you measure the social impact of a raw material or of a program? So that’s that is one of the big challenges that we are looking at. But yeah, we are driving progress as we go.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Now, for me, we’ve come full circle. I’ve heard a lot of interesting things and I hope that you also have been able to share the things that you wanted to talk about. A if not, then now is your chance. Is there anything that we haven’t touched upon that you really would like to add and you want to share with our listeners? Caroline, maybe you want to start.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Yes, well, thinking out loud on what we have covered and what we maybe have not covered, I would say to the listeners, it’s really important to take a step back and also do a bit more of a deep dive into specific topics. We’ve heard about the palm sentiment and it’s not always as black and white as it is painted. So I think it’s really important that we try to have this complete picture and have the facts right before we make an emotional decision. I think that’s really important. And on top of that, I think it’s also important to not just look at the emotional elements, but also take really the land use part into consideration. So if we need the raw materials in order to feed the global population growth, well, with that, we also need to focus on those elements that are most efficient and that we can use properly. So I think that’s something that I would like to at least state in the end.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Thank you.

Jules Blom
Yeah, maybe for my side. I think businesses who really do two things, right, drive performance and drive sustainability at the same time. And that’s I mean, I’m in many customer conversations and you see businesses that have that mindset versus businesses that think that sustainability is something completely separate from, you know, negotiations with suppliers and take a completely different approach to that. And I fundamentally believe that it needs to be an integrated approach. And I encourage all the listeners to explore that a bit.

Caroline Westerik-Sikking
Yeah, definitely. Sustainability is not a nice to have. It is a business imperative.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Thank you very much for joining me today. It was a super interesting conversation for me. And well, all the best for the future.

Jules Blom
Thank you for having us.

Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
That was Karolina Westerik-Sikking and Jules Blom from AAK. We covered a lot of ground from the palm oil debate to shea butter sourcing in West Africa. But if there’s one thing I hope you take away, it’s this. Sustainability isn’t about avoiding certain crops. It’s about demanding better practices. AAK uses satellite monitoring to track deforestation, works directly with 250,000 women collecting shea kernels and shows that doing well as a company and doing good can go hand in hand. If this kind of story resonates with you, follow Climate Forward on your favorite podcast app. And if you’re already listening regularly, thank you for being part of this community. I’m your host, Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi, and I’ll see you next time on Climate Forward.