Show notes
Transcript
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Welcome to Climate Forward. My name is Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi and this is my podcast. Today I speak to Kasia Balucka. She’s a policy officer at DG Klima at the European Commission.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
The motto of the climate pact is: “My world, my action, our planet”.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Thank you very much for taking the time to join me today to have a conversation about the European climate pact.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Hello, everyone.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Kasia maybe you can very briefly introduce yourself and your role.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Thank you very much for coming here. It’s it’s wonderful to have you as an ambassador to interview me. I have started the Climate Pact in 2022, and I am responsible for it together with a team here in the European Commission, Directorate-General for Climate Action.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
That’s already the first important point. We’re in Brussels today here at one of the buildings of the European Commission. You already mentioned it. You are working on the European Climate Pact. What is this?
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
European Climate Pact aims to be a movement of people united around a common cause. And the common cause is what can each of us do in order for the climate challenge to be solved as much as possible? And what action can I take? And we’re not trying to create something new because there’s so much going on out there. But we are trying to find the people who are already doing something and to work with them, support them, and see who can do best which part of this climate action.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Maybe before we dive further into the climate pact and what the goals are, I would like to spend one or two minutes at your position because you said you started the climate pact a while ago. What is your your title here at the commission and what do you do?
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
So I’m something called policy officer. I’m responsible for stakeholders and citizens engagement, and especially in a topic like climate, climate change, climate action, it’s very important because it impacts every single one of us.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Okay, I’m not sure if all the listeners know, but around 2019 we had the European elections and we got a new Commission and in their program, sustainability or climate has received a lot of attention. There has been the Green Deal. This is a major policy of the European Commission. Can you very briefly share with us a little bit what is the Green Deal? Because that will be the sort of, say, segway to the Climate Pact.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Absolutely. Climate Pact is part of the Green Deal. So the European Green Deal is it’s a set of policies geared towards dealing with the climate challenges we are facing. So if we manage to implement the set of policies that are under the Green Deal, we should be able to keep the warming below 1.5 degrees. So this is something that we have all committed to in Paris. And so the Green Deal, it’s like a practical implementation of this commitment. And it’s very important and it’s very complicated at the same time, because in order for us to to limit the warming, we have to act on many things at the same time. So the Green Deal is about climate, energy, how we use land, how we grow food. It’s about transport. It’s about taxes. And there are a set of policies and and strategies around that that are now being negotiated with the member states. Because the overarching aim is that by 2050, Europe becomes the first climate neutral continent and there are intermediate steps by the 2050 if we want to get there, actually, we need very concrete steps to happen by 2030, for instance. So there’s a commitment that by 2030 we would have lowered our emissions by 55%. And it all sounds very complicated because it is complicated. But why it’s so important is because it affects our lives as citizens in in all of its aspects.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
I think that was quite a good summary of the Green Deal because it is indeed a huge policy complex that’s touching every aspect of our life, I dare to say.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Yes, exactly. So, you know, I mentioned all these areas. I can give you some examples. So the one that we feel every day in a way is for the past years, every year has been hotter on record. So the heat in summer we all start really feeling and now it’s November. And two weeks ago it was 25 degrees Celsius in November and it might be nice or it might feel nice, the problem is it’s destroying the the the way, you know, climate functions. That’s why on the one hand, we have floods like there are floods in Belgium and Germany last year where people died, houses were destroyed, and there are wildfires at the same time. So in Greece, in Italy, in France this year. So we are really you know, the climate change is starting to be felt, not somewhere far away, but really on our doorstep. And we are really starting to realize it really affects me and other examples pertain to the energy bills today. So, you know, why are we paying such high prices for energy? It’s the war in Ukraine, but it’s also connected to our energy mix that we have now that we are still so reliant on fossil fuels. So an interesting thing happened that since the Green Deal has been written and announced, we have really moved into a very practical implementation of everyday management of our wallets. You know, it’s no longer a beautiful concept of greenery around us, now t’s really about, can I pay my bills? Another really close example to our lives is agriculture. Agriculture is also responsible for one third of emissions, so it’s really affecting how we eat as well, or how we need to start thinking about what we eat.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
So really every aspect of our life and also I think very, like you said, we feel the difference between having a sustainable energy mix versus an energy mix that’s coming from very few sources and is focused on fossils. And I think that’s a good point, to focus a little bit on the Climate Pact. I understand that there was a need and a wish to also make sure that everyday people like you and me feel the impact of the Green Deal and understands why do we need to make this change as a continent? And here, before we dive into this, I want to make a comparison, or I want to touch upon grassroots movements because, well, we have the policy structure on the European level by the Commission. Of course we have grassroots movements in different member states, but also pan-European like the Fridays for Future. But we also have movements that come out of a very different area like we saw it in France, the the yellow vests that were a reaction to a tax that probably was well intended to tax fossil fuels higher, but had a very different result. And I think we really saw a disconnect between policy and what the needs of people are and maybe you can share a little bit how such grassroots movements also impacted the thinking here at the European Commission.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Absolutely. So I will paraphrase my my boss, my big boss, executive vice president of the European Commission, Frans Timmermans. He always says when he’s asked about the Green Deal, the Green Deal is there thanks to the young people who have been marching the streets, because it’s about their today and about their future, you know, what world they will live. So in that sense, the Green Deal is a response to the grassroots calling for action. And then, of course, once you go from the grassroots to policy and the member states and like where each of the member states is in terms of, you know, climate action, advancement of climate action, then you have to find some common ground. So this is the kind of supply side of policies, the European Green Deal, what is proposed is based on science. And then now member states are negotiating and having a look like what and how can be implemented. I think it’s important to mention because sometimes, you know, we hear oh Brussels invented something. In the case of the Green Deal, it’s really not Brussels inventing anything. It’s really based on a) science, b) not only young but activists who are really conscious of of the climate challenge we have voicing it very clearly. And then the Pact is kind of the demand side because you can have the most perfect policies or policies that make sense from science point of view, for instance. But like with the yellow vests, it’s about “but in my life, I have other problems”. Like, we all have one goal. We want to have a better life. Yes. So, now it’s about having a look can the policies and the solutions proposed to fight climate change actually bring a better life? Like should we talk about difficulties because we are trying to solve the fossil fuel problem? Or can we talk about opportunities? Can we talk about cleaner cities, healthier life, lower bills? And this is a little bit what we are trying to do with the Pact, to translate these complicated policies into what does it mean for me in my everyday life. And it really does mean a lot. I always say I’m a mother, I’m a communicator, I’m a civil servant of the European Commission, I’m a voter, I’m a consumer. In these roles in my life, can I do something? The motto of the climate pact is “my world, my action, our planet”. You know, if because what you said, people say, well, what can I do? “It’s for the industry and for the governments”, but if everybody does a little bit, then maybe we can make it on time.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
That’s very, very nicely puts. And I like that this idea is that, you know, empowerment comes from a lot of small actions that will ultimately make a big change. So let me ask you in an open question, what are the goals of the Pact?
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
So the goals the goals of the Pact are first of all, translating our motto, “my world, my action, our planet” into action, trying to see with people, not to tell people what to do, but trying to have a conversation and a reflection: So what can I do? As I said, in these roles that we play in life, that’s one. Second, there are already people doing things. Can we amplify? Can we inspire others? There are so many things going on. Can we find a way of making it more visible so that if I today decide to do something but I don’t know how to do it, maybe I can get inspired by somebody else doing something already. This is the idea of our Climate Pact Ambassadors. You are one. And the beauty for me of Climate Pact Ambassadors is that it’s people recruited from every walk of life. So we have mayors, we have communicators like you, we have scouts, we have students, we have teachers, we have experts on different things. And also I personally believe in the power of individual within a system.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
I personally like that a lot because I do think that also our you know, our world or our society in Europe is very much built upon individual contribution. And I like that, you know, that Brussels seeks to make policies more accessible, but also say a little bit, you know, don’t lean back and hope that everything will be solved, but get active, get involved and contribute yourself. I like this a lot.
So we are talking about the European Climate pact here. Like you said in the beginning, you are responsible for the European Climate pact within the European Commission. Can you a bit explain how that works and how is the Pact situated within the commission? Because, and also sorry, one more question. Can you maybe explain you mentioned DG CLIMA, um, well, I think it’s great if we explain a little bit what is DG CLIMA? How can I imagine this in Brussels? Are you all sitting together and how does this work?
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
That’s a lovely question. Um, so DG CLIMA is Director General for Climate Action. It’s like ministries in, in every country in the way the European Commission is set up. European Commission is the executive arm of of the European institutions. Apart from the European Commission, there is the European Parliament, so the members of European Parliament that people vote for, and then there is the the Council where either the ministers or prime ministers negotiate what the commission – so us – what we propose. This is how it operates. So we we come up ways with policies and they are proposed to to the two other institutions.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
So so this is DG CLIMA and DG CLIMA is responsible with – you mentioned him – Frans Timmermans with this Green Deal and there the climate pact is is part of. And I think it’s good to sort of give this a bit of, uh, to describe this so people know a little bit what, where in Europe it is happening, and you realize that there is a lot of people who are working with passion for the European Union and see themselves – maybe bureaucrats is a bit negative indeed – so civil servants and they want to change something and help drive us forward. Going full circle here, coming back to climate policies and you mentioned it, can we maybe change something that is perceived as a threat to something that is a differentiator or maybe at a competitive advantage for Europe?
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Yes, absolutely. I mean, this is how I how I see it. Not not only because I’m sitting here, but also, you know, when I look at today’s consumers and I always talk about my daughter who’s 16 and she doesn’t buy anything that’s not sustainable enough in her view. I understand it’s a movement that’s, you know, not yet massive because today sustainable products tends to cost more. But the idea is that these sustainable products will last longer. And why it’s also so important is because there are planetary boundaries it’s called, and there is no planet to B. And these are not slogans. It just really means that the way we produce and consume today, it’s not sustainable. It’s not, we cannot live like this because there isn’t enough resources. And also we will drown in in rubbish essentially. So it’s something we have to change. Actually, a lot of people who come to climate action realize there is a problem when they go to some remote, beautiful beach somewhere and instead of a clean sand, they see plastic bottles. And this is when it kind of hits you and and you start to reflect and for for those people, actually, I want to make a little advertisement: Like, if you’re only starting and you’re wondering what what you could do today, we have partnered with something called Count Us In. Count Us In is a website where you have 16 steps that anyone can take. It ranges from I will eat more veggies to I will fly less and there is even an action anyone can do.: I will talk to friends. If you want to talk to your friends or if you want to know more about, what can I do in my life to be more climate friendly and sustainable, we have prepared something called peer parliaments. We have run peer parliaments last year with our ambassadors who have been very active. Parliaments is essentially a gamified way of spending an hour or so with your friends or colleagues discussing climate related topics. But based on facts, we have prepared some facts for you to have that conversation and some questions that where you actually express and you discuss with your friends, if I wanted to have more sustainable transport in my in my city or town, what would be more important for me that, for instance, public transport is cheaper or that there are more charging stations for electric vehicles and so on? And it was quite interesting to have these conversations because it’s fun, but it’s really meaningful and it’s really science based because what is important, there’s a lot of miscommunication and fake news out there as to like what is sustainable and what is not and why. And we really tried to to bust some of these myths. So I really encourage anybody at the beginning of their climate action road to to have a look at the website of the European Climate Pact. There are quite a few or nice resources there and more games like the Climate Fresk where one can find out what is the science behind the climate change and what do fossil fuels do and what happens if we remove them, to even playing with policy tools. Like if you were a policymaker, how would you? What would you do? And is it enough to remove fossil fuels or more needs to be done. So well that would be my call to you and of course anybody interested in becoming a Climate Pact Ambassador or friend of the pact. The movement is little still, but it’s growing and it’s full of amazing people.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Yeah, we will make sure that we put the links to Count Us In and also to the Climate Pact website in the show notes so that people can easily find it and maybe to not yet completely come to an end, but to look at the ambassadorship and and or friends of the pact, maybe you can very briefly explain there are different levels of participation. Can you explain a little bit what the thought or the thinking behind this is? And what can I do if I want to take action?
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Absolutely. It’s called ambassadors, because whatever action you take, big or small, that’s important and it’s worth being, one deserves to be called an ambassador. Indeed, we have ambassadors who do quite advanced things. So the they organize events or they get industry together together with other stakeholders to to come up with a good plan. Like when one of my favorite projects is from Bologna, it’s slow food movement. An ambassador there managed to interconnect the mayor, the industry, the farmers, the farmers markets, the people on the farmer farmers market to see like how can we produce so that it’s sustainable and so on. So this is of course quite an advanced project, but it doesn’t have to be. It can be like the peer parliaments I have mentioned. You commit to talking to your friends or to people at your university or in the company you’re in you want to see some changes. So it can really be very different things. And on our website you also can find quite a few examples of what our ambassadors do and how to become an ambassador? You go to our website and it’s all explained there.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Yeah. We’ll also put this link in the show notes.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
There is a small change that I have to mention here. Before it was a continuously open process. You could apply any time there was a lot of interest for which we’re very grateful, but we have to now do it in in stages. For the moment. I think we will reopen ambassador applications in spring.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Maybe it’s also important to say the climate pact is quite young, right? So this is also a project that’s evolving as we go along. And I think that also has for me a lot of charm because it also leaves room to help shape how it looks and what it is.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Absolutely. It’s only two years old. We you know, we’re having some teething challenges. And but as you said, we we really tried to listen to the ambassadors also, because one important feature of ambassadors is that it’s like a two way communication. So on the one hand, we equip ambassadors with knowledge of climate policies at the EU level. But on the other hand, we really want to listen, you know, does this narrative hold where you come from? Because the reality is climate policy, climate action, climate change, every corner of Europe has a different narrative. It really depends where you come from. There may be different things you care about.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Yeah. In in another episode, I talk to former Janssen, the country coordinator for the Benelux area and at that time for the Netherlands, who is from a very rural area. And in the Netherlands there is the nitrogen crisis. It’s a huge topic for the Green Deal because it’s really important that we do something about nitrogen. But there people are directly impacted because it’s a major, yeah, the majority of the population is in farming. So they are also asking what happens to us and yeah, so a lot of challenges and I think that’s really one of the advantages that the Pact could have to bring European policies closer to the people and to make sure that when I am a farmer, I don’t think about someone sitting in an office far away in Brussels, but that I have someone close to me that maybe engages in a conversation and that could be a Climate Pact Ambassador who was first step is one of these peer parliaments.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Absolutely. I mean, is a dual challenge. Because on the one hand, Brussels feels far away. But as as we explained, in case of climate policy, it’s really something that impacts my life every day. And then so once I realized that I expect more action maybe from Brussels, but actually it’s always the member states, the national governments who need to agree. So there’s nothing we can do just like that from Brussels. It all has to be agreed with the the people that the citizens vote for.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
I think we could make a whole episode about how the EU works because I do think that a lot of people have misperceptions about it. But there’s something else I want to talk about. Imagine that I have now, you know, I’m an ambassador and I have this great idea, but it costs a little bit of money. Is there also a fund available for me as an ambassador?
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
That’s a very good question. And this is a question to which I would like to say, yes, of course, there’s a lot of money available to you. Unfortunately, there is some money because especially in the next next round of the Pacts, as we said, the Pact is two years. Now we are shaping the next two years, the following two years of the pact, and there’s already a little bit of money available to activities by ambassadors because as I said, in every country you need something else. So in the next round of the pact, there will be a little bit more money for these small projects. And in terms of the money, this is the money that goes through the general programs of of the Commission. So the Cohesion Funds, there is an upcoming Climate Fund to mitigate the the hardships of of high energy prices. So there is a whole array of funding available. And I know and I understand it’s not easily understandable. But like with everything, if you go to venture capital, you also have to invest in your know-how how to get the money from venture capital. So before I joined the Commission, I worked in the private sector and I wrote some tenders and it was an investment. But once you know how to do it, it’s worth it.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Yeah, I think this is also important to say this. It’s impossible for the for for the Commission in Brussels to hand out individual funds to thousands or millions of citizens. So these are channels through big European programs that are then often implemented on a national level and handed out by the governments. So if you have, maybe I can say this here, if you have a great idea that has to do with sustainability, there’s probably funding on your national level that’s funded by EU funds. There are there’s the European Regional Fund for Development Horizon 2020. I don’t know what it is now, but.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Horizon 2020 and there will be next one. But in the Pact, in this coming year, we want to do like a guide what’s out there. So that will be already helpful. But I think already our Commission websites are not to bad in explaining like where there’s money, follow us!
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
I can recommend this. So I think looking at the time where we are slowly coming to an end here, I would like to ask you about one or two milestones or maybe even examples that you have seen in your work in the climate. Aspects that you would like to highlight, where really the spirit of this idea has has manifested.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
So I’ve already mentioned this Bologna project. Somehow it’s the Slow Food Bologna project. It’s, it’s very close to how I imagine changing systems I don’t know anymore if it started “just” under inverted commas with ambassador or not, but the fact that it was possible to bring together different actors that are necessary to make a change around Bologna’s food production and consumption, I think that’s amazing. And then in terms of simple things, I personally really love these peer parliaments that I mentioned, and I am really grateful to ambassadors that you have embraced this idea and gathered friends groups of like from 5 to 15 and had these conversations because I believe what is really in this spirit of the Pact and it might sound trivial, even just having a conversation with someone, it can be really powerful.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
I think these are two wonderful examples to to close off. So Kasia, thank you very, very much for taking the time to talk to me today. I think we learned a lot about the Climate Pact, about your personal motivation. I think that’s also very interesting. And to get a bit of an insight into how the commission works. So thanks a lot once again for taking the time. And yeah, maybe we will meet again somewhere down the road.
Katarzyna Balucka-Debska
Absolutely. I want to thank you as well, because as Climate Pact Ambassador, you took upon yourself to do these podcasts. And I think it’s an amazing idea and I encourage everyone to listen, not just to this one, but actually even more to the ones that you have done or you will do with our ambassadors, because they do real concrete things that can be really inspiring.
Mansur Philipp Gharabaghi
Thanks a lot Kasia.
This was climate forward with Kasia Balucka. If you want to learn more about the European Climate Pact, its Ambassadors and their actions, hit subscribe so you don’t miss out on new episodes.
